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Informacje na temat estrow oraz ogolna wiedza - Na pytania odpowie Thomas Schaefer (TomNJ)

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Deleted member 925788

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Witam,

postanowilem zaprosic na nasze forum @TomNJ , serdecznie go witam. Znany z amerykanskiego forum www.bobistheoilguy.com (Bitog), odnosnie jego osoby, skorzystam z informacji zawartych w watku na rosyjskim forum:

Przeszedł na emeryturę po 38 latach w Hatco Corporation, producencie i światowym liderze w produkcji estrów syntetycznych i smarów syntetycznych (obecnie oddział Chemtura / Lanxess). Przez ostatnie 16 lat w Hatco pełnił funkcję wiceprezesa ds. Sprzedaży i marketingu, odpowiadając na całym świecie za smary syntetyczne. Prowadził badania i rozwój produktów oraz doskonalenie procesów, a także koordynował produkcję i sprzedaż ze spółkami joint venture w Niemczech i Brazylii. Przez dwadzieścia lat był osobiście odpowiedzialny za komercyjne i wojskowe produkty lotnicze.

Mozecie zadawac mu pytania odnosnie syntetycznych estrow oraz ogolnie srodkow smarnych. Lecz wiadomo w jezyku angielskim.

Pozdrawiam
 
I'm first!

I use google translator because my english is not good.

So if I want to use esters in an oil formulation, I have to carry out a series of tests, e.g. elastomer compatibility? How does it look in the industry, if I want to use esters, the manufacturer will advise me which specific type of ester will be optimal for my composition?
 
Thank you for your welcome! So far Google / Chrome has done a pretty good job of translating for me on the Russian Oil Club forum, at least enough for me to generally understand, so it should work fine here as well. Certainly with translation misunderstandings are possible. Please do not take offense if the translations miss the mark.

Also please understand that I am not a mechanical engineer. It has been many years since I worked on car engines and am not up to date on that technology. Most of my experience is with synthetic lubricants, especially esters, in automotive, industrial, and aviation applications.

My LinkedIn profile is here:


Tom
 
I'm first!

I use google translator because my english is not good.

So if I want to use esters in an oil formulation, I have to carry out a series of tests, eg elastomer compatibility? How does it look in the industry, if I want to use esters, the manufacturer will advise me which specific type of ester will be optimal for my composition?

There are many different kinds of esters. The company I worked for, Hatco, manufactured some 80 different esters, including about 50 POEs. The esters differ in viscosity, VI, volatility, polarity, oxidative stability, thermal stability, pour point, flash point, lubricity, cleanliness, seal compatibility, biodegradability, hydrolytic stability, additive solubility, PAO compatibility, and cost. These differences derive from the numerous chemical structures possible from the broad range of available raw materials. As a result, esters are viewed by the industry as complex chemistry compared to PAOs and Group IIIs, and many companies are confused when it comes to recommending the right ester for an application, even ester manufacturers.

For the best advice, always speak directly to a technical expert at your ester supplier rather than a salesperson. Make sure they know exactly what performance properties you are expecting from the ester in your formulation, the application, the working environment, and what other ingredients are present. Also let them know what esters your have tried and the results. A good advisor will ask a lot of questions in order to select the ideal ester, and also tell you if an ester is not required. If an ester is of value he should supply several samples of possible candidates for evaluation, and help with the testing.

Here is a paper I wrote years ago on esters which should provide some basic knowledge.

Esters in Synthetic Lubricants
 
Thank you for your answer!

Do you know what type of ester should be safely used in higher concentration in lubricants for passenger car engines?

I know that NPI plays a big role here, because it competes with other additives.

P.S

Unfortunately, the link does not work. You probably mean here
 
@TomNJ
Taking the opportunity to ask a question, I have a question about the Mannol ester addtive additive to the oil, have you dealt with this product, is it a product worth recommending because I personally use it and I am very pleased with the organoleptic feeling, it mutes the diesel engine especially during the morning winter start-up?
 
Sorry for the link - I should have tested it. Here is the url:


Esters have fallen out of favor for PCMOs in the USA since Group IIIs are considered "synthetic" here and do not need esters for seal compatibility and additive solubility like PAOs. Most companies that do use esters in PCMOs prefer Trimethylolpropane C8C10 (Hatcol 2938, Calester T, Esterex NP343, Priolube 3970, Synative 2925, etc). This POE is 4.4 cSt @ 100 °, and has a VI of 140, a Noack of 3%, a pour point of -54 ° C, and excellent lubricity and solubility. Its NPI, however, is only 58 so the dosage is usually below 20%.

Another ester that I would consider but I have not used is Priolube 1973 (neopentylglycol diisostearate) which has an NPI of 130 and can be used at higher doses. However its KV100 of 8 cSt is a bit high to use at high percentages low viscosity PCMOs. Esters with high NPIs are usually high in viscosity.

A blend of the two esters above could also be a good choice to balance NPI and viscosity.
 
@TomNJ We know oils based exclusively on PAO without esters, eg Aral / Castrol, Meguin / Liqui Moly. It seems that it is possible to prepare the formulation without the addition of POE or Diesters. I know that there are additives that increase the adhesion to metal, eg Polyisobutene. The solubility of the additives is also not a problem. The aniline point is also important, how can I lower it?
 
[USER = 1304] @TomNJ [/ USER]
Taking the opportunity to ask a question, I have a question about the Mannol ester addtive additive to the oil, have you dealt with this product, is it a product worth recommending because I personally use it and I am very pleased with the organoleptic feeling, it mutes the diesel engine especially during the morning winter start-up?
I have not used Mannol 9929 Ester Additive (if that is the one you are talking about) and it is apparently not available in the USA. The SDS shows it to contain 50% Di 2-Ethylhexyl Sebacate (DOS), a linear diester. This ester has excellent lubricity but is fairly light, only 3.2 cSt @ 100 ° C. The VI of DOS is 150 and the Noack is 17%. The SDS also lists ZDDP and an amine anti-oxidant.

Personally I don't add any additives to a well formulated and certified oil because of the possibility of upsetting its balance, but if I were to use an additive I like the ester choice in this one and the fact that it replaces the ZDDP and anti-oxidants it dilutes. I would consider it for an older engine at perhaps 10%.
 
[USER = 1304] @TomNJ [/ USER] We know oils based exclusively on PAO without esters, eg Aral / Castrol, Meguin / Liqui Moly. It seems that it is possible to prepare the formulation without the addition of POE or Diesters. I know that there are additives that increase the adhesion to metal, eg Polyisobutene. The solubility of the additives is also not a problem. The aniline point is also important, how can I lower it?
It is likely that the PAO oils you mention contain some form of an ester, but not a high dose of a POE or Diester. There are some esters with high aromaticity that can lower the aniline point and are used at very low doses, like around 1%. You would probably not see these esters in an FTIR graph or oxidation test but may in gas chromatography.

PAO is so non-polar that it usually needs some help to solubilize additives and balance seals. I recall seeing a small dose of Butyl Benzyl Phthalate (BBP) listed on a motor oil SDS many years ago. I would prefer a Ketjenlube ester, and the high molecular weight versions usually do not show up in most analyses.
 
amine anti-oxidant
True, this signal confirms the presence of this AO.
t.jpg

I am curious what concentration VII. The VOA found a kinematic viscosity at 100 ° C ca. 10.7 cSt. Other low viscosity oils are not confirmed by SDS, apart from this ester.
Post automatically merged:

You would probably not see these esters in an FTIR graph or oxidation test but may in gas chromatography.
What do you think about NMR? Seems like a more in-depth study, take a look at it: https://www.oilclub.pl/index.php?threads/propozycja-badań-nmr.593/
 
@TomNJ, welcome to the Polish oil-club forum!
I hope you will stay here for a long time.

I'd like to ask you, why Japan manufactures many years ago decided to use low viscosity lubricants (besides of ecology issue)?
While in Europe we still use SAE40 and SAE30 oils, latest version of Toyota hybrid engines use 0w16.
 
Hi @TomNJ

What do you think about Archoil AR9100 (oil additive)? I know that AR is widely used in US and users reports that formula works, but my concern is if there are possible negative effects in long period of time? I know that product use different esters in formulation.
 
@TomNJ

Hi Tom :) What can you say about the Xado Very Lube Turbo add-on? The description is tempting. It contains fullerenes with an atomic number of 60. Greetings and welcome to the forum of oil addicts :)
 
hello @TomNJ :) I connect to the question about Archoil 9100, what could you say about this oil additive? my next question concerns Liqui Moly Ceratec - on bitog, there was a heated discussion about it, but the lack of a proper conclusion after several pages of the topic :-(
 
I'd like to ask you, why Japan manufactures many years ago decided to use low viscosity lubricants (besides of ecology issue)?
While in Europe we still use SAE40 and SAE30 oils, latest version of Toyota hybrid engines use 0w16.
A good question. I assume they are seeking maximum fuel economy, which is a large selling point for cars in the USA even though we have cheap fuel. They can use these thin oils if they design the engines for them and have robust anti-wear, EP, and friction modification additives in the oils. Engines can operate quite well with different viscosity grade oils if well formulated. Personally I prefer 5W-30 oils in my cars when they are out of warranty.
 
Hi @TomNJ

What do you think about Archoil AR9100 (oil additive)? I know that AR is widely used in US and users reports that formula works, but my concern is if there are possible negative effects in long period of time? I know that product use different esters in formulation.
Sorry, I am not familiar with the Archer products.
 
@TomNJ

Hi Tom :) What can you say about the Xado Very Lube Turbo add-on? The description is tempting. It contains fullerenes with an atomic number of 60. Greetings and welcome to the forum of oil addicts :)
Sorry, I am not familiar with the Xado products. I generally do not follow aftermarket oil additives because I do not need them or use them. I prefer to use an oil that has been API or OEM certified oil for a reasonable OCI and not add any unknown additive to it.
 
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