Informacje na temat estrow oraz ogolna wiedza - Na pytania odpowie Thomas Schaefer (TomNJ)

[TomNJ]

This is what Chevron says:

I don't doubt that pure PAO has a higher specific heat, but PAO is only part of an oil's formulation. I would want to see data that finished PCMOs based on high concentrations of PAO actually reduce engine temperatures, especially since the engine operating temperature is controlled to a great degree by the coolant. The other question of course is does it matter.

Post automatically merged: 05.12.2020

Looks like Google translation was not so good as I don't understand your question. Did you say "what tests do labs carry out"?

 

[Deleted member 925788]

Of course, in my opinion, the significance here will also be played by the lower CCS viscosity, such oil will have lower internal resistance, and as a result, lower temperatures can be achieved. But too low a temperature is not an advantage, such oil will oxidize more slowly but not burn all kinds of contaminants out of the oil.

Post automatically merged: 05.12.2020

@TomNJ Right, what kind of tests did you do while preparing ester formulations?

 

[TomNJ]

[USER = 1304] @TomNJ [/ USER] Right, what kind of tests did you do while preparing ester formulations?

I discontinued Hatco's line of ester based PCMOs in the late 1980s due to low sales volume so I have not formulated engine oils since then. We did some testing at outside labs such as complete engine testing and elastomer compatibility. Internally we ran the other specification tests for physical and chemical properties. Your additive supplier should be able to guide you on modern and relevant development screening tests and may offer to run some for you. Focus should be on elastomer compatibility and wear.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

Have you ever used boron compounds in formulations?

 

[TomNJ]

Yes but not in motor oils, only in a POE based oven chain oil and a high temperature grease. We filed a patent on it (Patent) but apparently my company abandoned the patent after I retired.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

Here I see it is used as an EP additive. In motor oils, we always have a dilemma as to what kind of boron compound was used, as a rule it is said that low concentrations indicate the presence of boron compounds as an ashless dispersant additive.

 

[TomNJ]

My understanding is it is a multi-purpose additives in motor oils but this is not an area of expertise for me. In my industrial formulations the boron additive I used provided EP and a synergistic response to certain anti-oxidants.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

At which chemicals was the antagonistic synergism achieved? You certainly had such a case when you were preparing the formulation.

 

[Deleted member 6544987]

@TomNJ, do you have experience with LSPI phenomenon?
As we know, two main reasons occurence of LSPI:
- deposits, especialy on piston
- oil drops in combustion chamber.
I'd like to ask you, can you say, which factor contributes more to the occurrence of the phenomenon?
And, why there are only few oils with visocity SAE40 wchich are formulated aganst this phenomenon?

 

[TomNJ]

At which chemicals was the antagonistic synergism achieved? You certainly had such a case when you were preparing the formulation.

The borate synergy appeared to be with the anti-oxidant since the high temperature oxidation test results improved dramatically and repeatedly when the borate was added. This was an unexpected surprise and the basis for the patent. It was the best high temperature oil & grease I ever formulated and it quickly went commercial as an oven chain oil.

 

[TomNJ]

@TomNJ, do you have experience with LSPI phenomenon?
As we know, two main reasons occurence of LSPI:
- deposits, especialy on piston
- oil drops in combustion chamber.
I'd like to ask you, can you say, which factor contributes more to the occurrence of the phenomenon?
And, why there are only few oils with visocity SAE40 wchich are formulated aganst this phenomenon?

This is not an area of expertise for me, but I have discussed this issue with some technical people at additive companies. From these discussions it appears there may be several factors at play. Calcium detergents have been determined to be a significant factor, which is why most PCMO formulations moved to a CA/MG mix for the SN Plus and SP specifications. I have also heard mention of excessive ZDDP, Noack Volatility, and VI Improvers as contributing factors (which may be why there are few SAE 40 oils approved under SP). I have not seen data to support these opinions.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

@TomNJ Have you had contact with VIIs? According to my information, they are not very perceived due to their high molecular weight, they are subject to chemical decay, which may lead to carbon deposits in the oil (upper) rings.

 

[Zielony34]

I have a basic question :

Do we really need ester additives in oils for passenger car engines? Is an amount of a few % so important?

Esters are known to be used in industry. Especially in aircraft engines or wind turbines, and in special cases in industrial machinery.

You can find varieties of oils, the manufacturer of which boasts of adding esters. In my opinion - if the oil officially has ACEA \ API, the addition of esters is marketing.

I want to asks simple questions, because you can often meet such questions about esters.

What about motorcycles with wet clutch?

welcome to Poland Oil Club!

 

[TomNJ]

@TomNJ Have you had contact with VIIs? According to my information, they are not very perceived due to their high molecular weight, they are subject to chemical decay, which may lead to carbon deposits in the oil (upper) rings.

There are many different kinds of VIIs and they vary greatly in shear stability, both temporary and permanent shear. They are necessary for many viscosity grades and can improve fuel economy. Too much of cheap high shear VIIs have been associated with piston deposits, but a good formulator knows how to select and balance the formulations. So long as an oil is certified for my specification needs I do not worry about the VII.

As for thermal stability, again they vary. I have used small amounts of low shear dispersant PMA type VIIs in industrial formulations where they had no adverse effect on high temperature oxidation or panel coking tests at temperatures as high as 282°C.

 

[TomNJ]

I have a basic question :

Do we really need ester additives in oils for passenger car engines? Is an amount of a few % so important?

Esters are known to be used in industry. Especially in aircraft engines or wind turbines, and in special cases in industrial machinery.

You can find varieties of oils, the manufacturer of which boasts of adding esters. In my opinion - if the oil officially has ACEA \ API, the addition of esters is marketing.

I want to asks simple questions, because you can often meet such questions about esters.

What about motorcycles with wet clutch?

welcome to Poland Oil Club!

I would use esters or other polar compounds such as ANs in a high PAO formulation to improve additive solubility and seal balance. Low percentages are effective for these purposes. For other formulations based on Group III or lower base oils they are not needed, but may enhance performance. At moderate percentages of 10-20% POEs can contribute higher lubricity and lower volatility, and reduce deposits. They are more expensive than other base oils, however, so their use is generally limited to low percentages, except in high priced boutique brands.

Sorry but I have no knowledge of motorcycle wet clutches.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

What do you think is more efficient in terms of dispersing properties, POE, etc. or classic dispersants, e.g. PIBSI ashless?

 

[TomNJ]

What do you think is more efficient in terms of dispersing properties, POE, etc. or classic dispersants, e.g. PIBSI ashless?

Probably dispersant additives due to their higher polarity, but I have not seen any data comparing them.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

I don't know either. But adding some percentage of esters will definitely increase the dispersion of impurities.

The following is an example of pistons:

20kkm on Motul X-Cess 5W-40 (based on VHVI).

And here ca. 40 kkm on Redline 5W-50 and 10W-60.

You can see that despite the high content of additives, including Mo etc., which may generate deposits. We can see that the motor has kept excellent cleanliness, do you think the POE contributed to that in this case? Or is it a merit of the additives, i.e. detergents / dispersants, AOs ? In my opinion, both.

 

[TomNJ]

I don't know either. But adding some percentage of esters will definitely increase the dispersion of impurities.

The following is an example of pistons:
View attachment 5160
20kkm on Motul X-Cess 5W-40 (based on VHVI).

View attachment 5161
And here ca. 40 kkm on Redline 5W-50 and 10W-60.

You can see that despite the high content of additives, including Mo etc., which may generate deposits. We can see that the motor has kept excellent cleanliness, do you think the POE contributed to that in this case? Or is it a merit of the additives, i.e. detergents / dispersants, AOs ? In my opinion, both.

I agree both. The detergents and dispersants are more powerful than the POE but the POE probably also contributed to the cleanliness.

 

[Deleted member 925788]

There are opinions that Redline uses POE from Croda, do you have any information about this?