Informacje na temat estrow oraz ogolna wiedza - Na pytania odpowie Thomas Schaefer (TomNJ)

in short - organic molybdenum (probably modtc-3?) and boron nitride

@TomNJ As far as I know, the gas chromatograph is a very thorough examination, you can see the difference between the individual bases in terms of molecular weight.

Speaking of molecular weight, have you done any research for base oil deposits? As far as I know, for example PAO with a low viscosity of 4 cSt burns cleaner.

Do you know this test?

How does it look like with ester hydrolysis? As far as I know, some antioxidants counteract this phenomenon.

Welcome to our forum. I am a simple computer scientist so I have two very general questions:

1) what do you think about vegetable engine oils which seem to be based on bioesters? Castrol advertised such an oil for example and since ecology is a hot topic in Europe, there will probably be more and more such oils. What does it look like from a specialist's point of view, do you have to be afraid of such oils or is it just another base?

2) it's more for other users and to close "additive" topic here In the USA, it is popular to mix oils to achieve an intermediate viscosity or some other parameters. Ready-made additives are probably more popular in Europe. And here is the question - how big is the chance that by mixing anything with oil, whether it will be a different oil or an additive, we will change the parameters of the oil for worse? In all the studies I have read about oil additives, bases etc. they have a fairly narrow quantitative tolerance between not working, helping and harming. Is there any way to judge when an mixture starts to harm and when it helps?

Oh, and one more thing - do you, as a specialist, think that there is still some "revolution" in engine oils and oil bases ahead? More and more companies are withdrawing from oil refining and moving towards renewable energies and a zero CO2 balance, more and more cars are powered by electricity, whether from batteries or fuel cells. Do you think that oil producers will develop oils or just adapt to standards and reduce costs?

poziom1989 napisał:

@TomNJ As far as I know, the gas chromatograph is a very thorough examination, you can see the difference between the individual bases in terms of molecular weight.

Speaking of molecular weight, have you done any research for base oil deposits? As far as I know, for example PAO with a low viscosity of 4 cSt burns cleaner.

Do you know this test?
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Gas Chromatography is very powerful for seeing base oils. I read lubricant GC graphs for decades when I worked.

There are many panel coking tests, many proprietary such as the one my company used. They often rank products differently, and their value depends on how well they correlate to real world standards and conditions. The one we used correlated well to jet engine and oven chain cleanliness and was an important tool in our product development of oils intended for these thin oil film, high temperature environments.

One has to be careful in ranking entire classes of chemistry with these tests. For examples, some POEs produce high deposits and others are almost perfectly clean depending on the structure of the POE. And Group I mineral oils often are cleaner in these tests than PAO. In fact in our test method PAO was one of the dirtiest base oils due to its lack of polarity and inability to dissolve deposit precursors. In automobile engines PAO is rather clean but in jet engines it would be a disaster. And of course additives play a major role as well. It is not as simple as the ranking you show above.

I doubt these tests would be of much value for motor oils because of the complex chemistry and environment, and there are so many variables that would need to be controlled. I prefer fired engine tests for measuring piston deposits and sludge.

poziom1989 napisał:

How does it look like with ester hydrolysis? As far as I know, some antioxidants counteract this phenomenon.

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Ester hydrolysis is easy to demonstrate in the laboratory but is rarely a problem in actual use. It takes severe conditions to put an ester together and severe conditions to take them apart. The company I worked for, Hatco, developed the first approved synthetic motor oil back in 1972 and it was based 100% on a diester. Used oil analyses of this oil and other similar ones did not reveal a hydrolysis issue. Likewise 100% ester based air compressor oils can deliver eight times the drain interval of mineral oil in spite of the high temperature and water exposure in this application.

In applications with extended high temperature and water exposure, hydrolysis should be considered in selecting an ester. There are some additives that can help with ester hydrolysis, but the structure of the ester in more important. Some ester structures are very hydrolytically stable.

TomNJ napisał:

I prefer fired engine tests for measuring piston deposits and sludge.

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I am familiar with the engine test Sequence IIIG or CEC L-111-16 engine test known from ACEA. But the problem is that no one is bragging about the results (only Amsoil).

There are deposit control additives, do you know OSP technologies? Aniline point approx. -30 ° C. It perfectly controls deposits, dissolves combustion by-products by itself.



Did you run these tests in the presence of oxygen? As far as I know, PAO stands out in terms of thermo-oxidative stability. Pay attention to the PTC.

jerseyAdmin napisał:

Welcome to our forum. I am a simple computer scientist so I have two very general questions:

1) what do you think about vegetable engine oils which seem to be based on bioesters? Castrol advertised such an oil for example and since ecology is a hot topic in Europe, there will probably be more and more such oils. What does it look like from a specialist's point of view, do you have to be afraid of such oils or is it just another base?

2) it's more for other users and to close "additive" topic here In the USA, it is popular to mix oils to achieve an intermediate viscosity or some other parameters. Ready-made additives are probably more popular in Europe. And here is the question - how big is the chance that by mixing anything with oil, whether it will be a different oil or an additive, we will change the parameters of the oil for worse? In all the studies I have read about oil additives, bases etc. they have a fairly narrow quantitative tolerance between not working, helping and harming. Is there any way to judge when an mixture starts to harm and when it helps?

Oh, and one more thing - do you, as a specialist, think that there is still some "revolution" in engine oils and oil bases ahead? More and more companies are withdrawing from oil refining and moving towards renewable energies and a zero CO2 balance, more and more cars are powered by electricity, whether from batteries or fuel cells. Do you think that oil producers will develop oils or just adapt to standards and reduce costs?

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Some biobased esters are excellent while others are not so good. Vegetable oils, for example, have very high VIs and lubricity but poor oxidative stability and low temperature flow. Some newer synthesized biobased esters such as Estolides are much better. For motor oils, as long as they can meet the industry performance standards and achieve certification they are fine, but other than the environmental benefit I don't see any performance improvements.

The problem with mixing different oils or using additives is that you may not know if the performance is improved or harmed. So much of it is subjective evaluation rather than scientific, and people do not usually take their engines apart to measure wear or deposits. I do sometimes mix oils of different viscosity grades but only within the same brand. It is very unlikely that mixing different brands meeting the same approvals will have any serious adverse effects in the engine, and I would if I had to, but I prefer to stay within a brand for mixing. Additives are a bit more risky, mainly because you don't know what is in them and most have not been tested against industry standards and in a variety of different oils. If I had a problem in an old engine that I believed an additive would help, then yes I would consider it, but I see no need to take any risk in a fine working engine.

Engine oils will continue to develop as engines develop. Industry standards are constantly being upgraded to satisfy the needs of engine advancements and I believe this will continue, at least for some time. If internal combustion engines are phased out, then new oils will be developed for their replacements. Technology tends to march on.

poziom1989 napisał:

I am familiar with the engine test Sequence IIIG or CEC L-111-16 engine test known from ACEA. But the problem is that no one is bragging about the results (only Amsoil).

There are deposit control additives, do you know OSP technologies? Aniline point approx. -30 ° C. It perfectly controls deposits, dissolves combustion by-products by itself.

Did you run these tests in the presence of oxygen? As far as I know, PAO stands out in terms of thermo-oxidative stability. Pay attention to the PTC.



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Sequence IIIG test results tend to be so tightly grouped that there is little room for bragging, especially considering test and blend variations.

OSPs have promise but are still being evaluated. Adding some solvency is but one factor in deposit control.

Our panel coking test was conducted in a glass chamber that was purged with water saturated air. The oil dripped slowly onto an inclined steel panel held at 282°C, spread out as it flowed down, dripped off the panel and was pumped back up to repeat the process. This is a dynamic coking test as opposed to a static test, so the oil flow washes over the panel and has the opportunity to dissolve deposits and their precursors if it is able to. This dynamic process is common in many applications.

Group I mineral oil has some polarity from its aromaticity and can clean to some degree its degradation byproducts. PAO is utterly paraffinic with no polarity, so even though it is more oxidatively stable it simply cannot clean up its own mess under these conditions. Hence it lays down very heavy deposits in this test. That does not mean it will form deposits in all applications, only in dynamic coking environments. This is why it is not used in jet engines, oven chains, or reciprocating air compressors, but is fine in screw compressors, gear boxes, and car engines. Base oils need to be optimized for each application, often by blending with other base oils.

This test is quite strict, in my opinion it is appropriate for turbine oils, the conditions will be adequate. I understand that they were carried out without the addition of AO, I am curious what the result would be with the addition of ca. 0.5% amine AO.

On forums from time to time you can find a statement that ester oils are able to remove old deposits, including varnish. And in my opinion, the varnish is the most persistent, because it is polar, it tends to soften at high temperatures, where, for example, POE will be able to keep it better in suspension, because it also acts as a natural dispersant. But I don't believe he can remove old deposits himself, what is your opinion on this? The more so that as a rule a very low concentration is used to recompose defects, e.g. PAO.

In my opinion, running panel coking tests on pure base oils is not very meaningful. In the real world the base oils contain additives which have a great impact on the test, and the additive effect varies by base oil type. For example, most PAO based oils have less than 1% anti-oxidants due to solubility limitations. The all ester oils that I formulated contained 2-3% AOs and this higher dose improved the coking results.

It has long been claimed that esters will help to clean a dirty engine. There is probably some truth to this based on the polarity of esters, but I have not seen actual scientific test data to support this claim. Valvoline Premium Blue Restore is an engine treatment oil which Valvoline claims will clean dirty engines. It reportedly contains about 50% POE and is reportedly effective for carbon deposits and sludge, but I don't know about varnish. I don't know if the small doses of POE used in PCMOs would be effective on varnish. Perhaps over a long period of time.

TomNJ napisał:

There is probably some truth to this based on the polarity of esters, but I have not seen actual scientific test data to support this claim

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Thank you for your answer.

Nobody can confirm it, and I have not found any tests. But I think likewise, they help to some extent due to the low aniline point. Apparently, the mineral oil, due to the high concentration of aromatic compounds, is also able to help in washing.

But in my opinion, oils have a preventive effect and here the differences can be visible and the appropriate ratio of detergents / dispersants and of course AOs.

The fact that, for example, POE can wash has its origins with Redline oils, as these are considered "washing" oils.

This Valvoline is not available in the European market.

Do you know how the POE concentration affects the elastomer compatibility? Mainly longlife. Here you have an example of the Infineum package which allows for the classic TMP C8-C10.

poziom1989 napisał:

Do you know how the POE concentration affects the elastomer compatibility? Mainly longlife. Here you have an example of the Infineum package which allows for the classic TMP C8-C10.
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The effect of POE on elastomers depends on the type of POE, the type of elastomer, the manufacturer of the elastomer, and the other ingredients in the oil formulation. I do not know of any general formulas for calculating the ester effect in a finished oil and only testing of the complete formulation can determine the effect. Esters with lower NPIs will generally cause more swelling and softening of some seals, but how much and how long it will take is complex. PAO will counter the swelling effect of esters. The Infineum P6040 is designed for formulations based on PAO and only 2% TMP C8C10 so the ester effect will be small. I know the old Mobil 1 formulations used about 15+% of this POE so they must have considered this level to be acceptable in their PAO formulations.

Regarding the degree of oxidation of POE, etc., it depends on the type of ester or is it simply the higher the value, the greater the concentration, based on the VOA?

If you were preparing a formulation for PCMO, any viscosity, based solely on PAO, which ester would you choose? And at what concentration?

If I prepare such a formulation, can I trust the ester supplier? Do I have to additionally carry out laboratory / engine tests on my own? It is known that I have to take into account all additives, i.e. corrosion inhibitors, AW / EP, AOs, etc. about the polar structure of the molecule and of course the compatibility of elastomers.

You also heard that the PAO has a higher specific heat, which means that the PAO is better at absorbing heat, can reduce the operating temperature of engine ?

Hi @TomNJ Please tell us your Top 5 oils for european and japanese normal and sport cars 5w30/40 ?

poziom1989 napisał:

Regarding the degree of oxidation of POE, etc., it depends on the type of ester or is it simply the higher the value, the greater the concentration, based on the VOA?

If you were preparing a formulation for PCMO, any viscosity, based solely on PAO, which ester would you choose? And at what concentration?

If I prepare such a formulation, can I trust the ester supplier? Do I have to additionally carry out laboratory / engine tests on my own? It is known that I have to take into account all additives, i.e. corrosion inhibitors, AW / EP, AOs, etc. about the polar structure of the molecule and of course the compatibility of elastomers.

You also heard that the PAO has a higher specific heat, which means that the PAO is better at absorbing heat, can reduce the operating temperature of engine ?

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If you are referring to the FTIR Oxidation result in a VOA, the value reflects both the amount of ester and the type of ester, and the additives also have an effect. Esters used in motor oils can have between one and eight ester linkages. To get an accurate percentage of ester you need to know which ester(s) are being used and account for the additives. Therefore the FTIR results give only a rough correlation to the ester content. Gas Chromatography is the prefered method to both qualify and quantify the ester base oils.

If I were formulating a synthetic PCMO I would look at high lubricity esters with a high NPI, such as Priolube 1973 and 1976. I would take advice from the supplier on concentration based on their data. Ideally I would like to have 20-40% of such esters if the supplier's data supports this level. Alternatively a smaller dose of 15-20% of a lower NPI ester such as TMP C8C10 would also be acceptable to me. Just my opinion as a starting point as the test data would be the final judge.

Yes I would listen to the ester supplier as well as the additive supplier with regard to the type and amount of ester, but I would also want to see some data on the finished oil for elastomer compatibility and wear, either my own data or theirs, before finalizing the formula.

I have not seen any data on the ability of PAO based PCMOs to reduce engine operating temperatures. Specific Heat is just one factor. The same claim is often made for esters.

This is what Chevron says:

Thermal conductivity is the measure of the ability to conduct heat. Specific heat is the amount of heat per unit mass required to raise the temperature one degree Celsius. The chart below shows that the PAO has a higher specific heat, which means that the PAO is better at absorbing heat. Furthermore, thermal conductivity at 300°F for PAO 6 is 0.085 compared to 0.071 Btu•ft/(h•ft2•°F) for an equiviscous mineral oil, which means that the PAO can conduct 20 percent more heat than the mineral oil for better heat dissipation.

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tomikin napisał:

Hi @TomNJ Please tell us your Top 5 oils for european and japanese normal and sport cars 5w30/40 ?

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I do not attempt to judge and rank oils by brand because I don't know the formulations and have not seen their engine and fleet data. VOAs and UOAs only give part of the picture. I choose oils by the engine manufacturer's recommendations and the oil's certified approvals.

I use Mobil 1 Extended Performance 5W-30 because I trust ExxonMobil's technology, and my engine/driving style/and environment are not extreme. Also I only want to change the oil in my vehicles once per year. My typical OCI is 9-10k miles, but one time I ran the Mobil 1 EP for a 15k mile OCI and the UOA was very good, giving me some confidence in this oil. That does not mean Mobil 1 is better than the many many other oils that meet my engine's requirements, it is just convenient for me.

Many people judge oils by subjective criteria, such as perceived power, noise, or smoothness. Others use VOAs, UOAs, SDS ingredients, and the oil manufacturer's claims. I prefer data from well controlled, standardized, industry accepted tests, in other words certified approvals that are relevant to my engines and driving style.

What tests do les carry out when preparing formulations using esters?